Friday, August 21, 2009

Compare and contrast


One

LB Brandon Fanney, LB Prince Hall, DB Alonzo Lawrence and former Davidson RB Jermaine Preyear "violated some type of team rule or policy and were not invited back on our team," Saban said.

and Two

“That’s something that isn’t true, but I’m not going to say anything about that,” Lawrence said.


vs.

Three

"At this time, Upshaw grabbed Gryzb by the back of the neck and hair with his right hand, and pushed her downward in what appeared to be an attempt to push her to the ground," Officer Rusty Romine wrote.

and Four

Alabama coach Nick Saban confirmed that sophomore linebacker Courtney Upshaw will not be suspended from the team in the wake of a verbal altercation with a girlfriend that police say became physical.

--------------------

(As an aside: if you're wondering whether 'Bama fans are paying attention to the message their head coach is sending about the importance of violence against women, judging by the RBR commenters [click for big] ...



... I'd say they're following his lead as closely as always.)

24 comments:

Ryan said...

the ONLY thing I love about Bama is that they make Auburn look good even when they're not trying.

Anonymous said...

Well, I doubt it has anything to do with starting talent. After all, Fanney would have been of more value at a Linebacker with his experience compared to limited play and special teams assignment for Upshaw.

Or, you could discuss wether or not police reports were correct by referencing the Rashad Johnson case where police stated how violent he was by starting the attack, only to have video evidence support Rashad that he was jumped.

And let us not forget that players such as Prince Hall and Brandon Faney have had rules problems behind the scenes, unlike Upshaw to this date. Ask PPL or Deron Furr about how that works.

Or you could talk to the girl's Dad, who thinks otherwise in regards to how "violent" Upshaw was that night.

But a cheap shot works too. Just as good.

Todd Jones said...

Jerry, I'm a little disappointed in this. You can reference those three comments and make us all look bad, or you could reference the rest of the thread those comments came from or you could reference the epic thread just a little further down the page and see that, while a handful of people decided to drop some gallows humor on a situation that became increasingly less serious as details emerged, those three comments are not indicative of the discussion that went on at RBR yesterday. Even though no chargers were pressed, at the time of the arrest both individuals stated to the officer that it began when the girl slapped Upshaw and stormed off after seeing him talk to another girl, and the girl's father supports Upshaw in the matter, there are still plenty of comments to the effect of "Upshaw's actions were still inappropriate/you do not treat a woman that way not matter how many times she slaps you" in both the comments section and on the main page.

d761 said...

Anon-

I believe Jerry's main point was to contrast what occurs after a bama player violates a "team policy" vs. what occurs after a bama player strikes a woman.

But, continue to rationalize. All part of the process, I guess.

Todd-

Agree. You can troll al.com at any given time and cherry-pick comments. Doubt any more than a minority of bama fans would make light of the situation. Probably about the same percentage as AU fans.

jrsuicide said...

that comment is the WIN of the week.

Anonymous said...

d761-

Then why post the Lawrence bit? It seems to suggest that Jerry believes Saban will keep Upshaw only because he is of more use on the field than Lawrence or any of the other players that are no longer on the team. Yet players like Fanney were playing above Upshaw last season.

Could it just be that this is Upshaw's first strike, and the others had multiple strikes?

And btw, he never struck her. He shouldn't have pushed her, but he wasn't the one doing the hitting in the report.

Jerry Hinnen said...

Todd: yeah, it's a bit of a cherry pick, and yeah, I could have taken the time to point out that the bloggers on the site were actively discouraging that sort of thing. (Pete Holiday and I actually were in total agreement on something. First time for everything, I suppose.) But I don't directly accuse anyone other than those commenters of saying anything to the contrary, and those particular comments were NOT an isolated incident. There's more at RBR, there's even worse at al.com. Are these in the fans in the minority? Yep. Is it a misrepresentation of how a decent chunk of 'Bama fans reacted to the news? Not at all. Sorry, but I stand by the post as is. (Besides, man, I seriously don't want this to be a big thing, but it's not like you've been above citing random Auburn fans on the Interwebs to make a point, right?)

Anon: Sorry, but I'm not taking the word of the Dad who wasn't there over the policeman who was.

As for the comparison, it speaks for itself.

d761 said...

Anon-

I cannot and, frankly, have no interest in putting myself in Saban's shoes (small as they may be) to figure out his reasoning. All that I and the general public can do is use examples of his disciplinary action/reaction to try make some sense of it. Hence, the compare and contrast.

So, what we are left with is:

Undisclosed violation of team rules = booted from team. In Lawrence's case, it is even in dispute as to whether a team rule was actually violated.

Violence towards a female =
No suspension from games or any disciplinary action known to the public.

But, again, "Anonymous", keep rationalizing.

d761 said...

Sorry, Jerry. Didn't realize your reasoning behind quoting the comments. Should have known better. You're not a "cheap shot" kind of guy.

Jaiden_S said...

I've never been a fan of Saban's so-called team discipline (or lack thereof) but this is a low even for him. Violence against a woman should never be tolerated.

Jerry Hinnen said...

Not a problem, d761.

Todd Jones said...

I would still stand by my "cherry pick" before yours, if only for the fact that mine used the comment that started off a thread of "amens!" without any dissent, whereas yours cherry picked three comments among a much more wide ranging discussion. Also, so glad you reminded me of that. I had forgotten about how scared we were of the Tony Franklin offense back then.

Anonymous said...

I think the bammers missed your point about the seriousness of a team rules violation and striking a woman. the fact that Hanney and others were further up the depth chart on drives home the point. To Saban, hitting a woman is the kind of offense that b-teamers can get away with without punishment; however, violating team rules (like touching his hair) will get any player, even a contributing vetran, kicked off the team. For you bammers who still dont get it, at UA hitting a woman is not as bad a violation a team rule. Apparently, no hitting women or no domestic violence arrests is not one of the rules.

Todd Jones said...

Anon, I think you are missing the difference in "striking a woman" and "being inappropriately physical while defending yourself from being struck (again) by said woman." Upshaw never "hit" her, and the only reason he was "inappropriately" physical was because it was with a woman. Had this ocurred between Upshaw and another man, we'd be praising his level headedness in refusing to hit back and simply protecting himself.

Anonymous said...

Who are you trying to convince, Todd?

Todd Jones said...

Well, since you're "anonymous" I don't know. But since you are either spouting gross micharacterizations fueled by a complete ignorance of apparently every detail that has emerged over this altercation (at best) or just flat lying about the situation to make an Alabama player look worse than he already does (and doing so anonymously!) on a (mostly) Auburn blog, I don't even know why I'm bothering trying to convince you. Rather than take an honest and sober look at the details and realize that the only person who was actually hit in the altercation was Upshaw (police report and both participants accounts say that the fight started when she hit him, and that both times Upshaw grabbed and pushed her took place as a response to her trying to hit him again), you'd rather just say "Saban doesn't care if his players hit women" because it fits your narrow, rivalry prejudiced view of the situation.

Jerry Hinnen said...

Anon: Look, we have to be clear about things: He didn't hit her. The way I read the report it doesn't sound to me like his grabbing the back or her neck and her hair was in any way self-defense, but he didn't strike her.

The reason we have to be clear about this is because it doesn't really matter. He tries to throw her to the ground, he hits her, whatever, he still put his hands on a woman in a violent matter. Period. The issue isn't the details of what happened, it's how Upshaw's team and coach are handling what happened, and confusing those details shifts the issue from one to the other.

Todd:

Come on, man. Don't start this "no one would care if it was a man" garbage. It wasn't a man. It's his girlfriend. So it's different. You know it, I know it, everyone (well, not quite everyone) knows it.

As for the cherry-pick, look, was it representative of the "wide-ranging discussion" as a whole? No. It wasn't. But the only people really leading the "discussion," that I saw, were you and Pete. Apologies if you feel otherwise, but from here it looked like your "commenters"--again, the only people I singled out--seemed pretty uniformly behind the tackling jokes and calling Gryzb a "crazy bitch." I just don't think I've misrepresented anything here.

As for Franklin, well, you have to give those Auburn fans some credit for recognizing that someone needed to fear his offense. They just had the teams backwards.

Jerry Hinnen said...

violent manner, dammit.

d761 said...

It appears that an AU player may have been arrested for disorderly conduct. I guess we'll be able to tell if there is a difference between the staffs rather quickly.

http://blog.al.com/auburnbeat/2009/08/auburn_rb_eric_smith_arrested.html

Of course, this player is not alleged to have become violent with a woman, so, maybe it's not apples to apples...

Marcus said...

It's simple, our players are all respectful, church-going college students who spend their free time reading to the elderly and working in soup kitchens. By contrast, your players (and by "you" I mean every other team other than the team of which I am a fan) are all gun-toting, drug-dealing, biatch-slapping thugs who spend their free time kicking puppies and beating up handicap children.

The above can and has been used by every fan of every CFB team pretty much from the beginning of time.

Also, the comments shown were clearly meant to be humorous, and they were. I think we're all mature enough to recognize the difference in a little light humor and the avocation of violence against women. It's not like we're talking about the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand (see SNL "comedy killer" sketch for somewhat obscure reference).

Wallacewade04 said...

you gunna post the part where the girls dad says it was her fault or are you going to just keep telling half truths?

Also domestic violence is never funny but this is the internet and anonymity breads dark humor

Anonymous said...

Todd,

I'm the anon that asked you who you are trying to convince. That was my only post. The fact that you came back on, even if you don't know why, shows that you're in defensive-mode overdrive. Usually, it's people who are trying to convince themselves who act this way. That was my point. The assumptions you're making (yes, they are assumptions) are just as bad, and probably aa far from the truth as the ones that some Auburn fans are making. My guess is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but you'll fail to acknowledge that because of your homerism.

Anonymous said...

This is EXACTLY why Aubarn (AL) is in the current predicament they are in. Unlike Alabama, where they rest their hopes upon National and SEC titles, Aubarn (AL) is too busy centering their thoughts around Alabama.

This is what led to a disastrous 2008 campaign; harping over a mythical number seven instead of focusing on being the preseason favorite to win the SEC West in '08.

Simply because you guys worry more about ONE TEAM than you do your very own is the reason why nobody outside of Lee County takes your program seriously.

The day you guys end your reign of obsessing over an entirely different program is the day you guys will actually become relevant on a national scale once again. Period.

Anonymous said...

This is EXACTLY why Aubarn (AL) is in the current predicament they are in. Unlike Alabama, where they rest their hopes upon National and SEC titles 24/7, Aubarn (AL) is too busy centering their thoughts around Alabama. You guys call them delusional, but having hopes of winning championships on a daily basis surely pales in comparison to focusing entirely on ANOTHER TEAM on a second to second basis.

This is what led to a disastrous 2008 campaign; harping over a mythical number seven instead of focusing on being the preseason favorite to win the SEC West in '08.

Simply because you guys worry more about ONE TEAM than you do your very own is the reason why nobody outside of Lee County takes your program seriously.

The day you guys end your reign of obsessing over an entirely different program is the day you guys will actually become relevant on a national scale once again. Period.

PS: Got Saban?